Simulación Planta de Tratamiento de Agua Industrial, Potable y Contra incendio

11 años 18 horas antes #17844 por Lobo
Respuesta de Lobo sobre el tema Diagrama
Si puedes manda un dibujo del sistema y las condiciones de presion capacidad bombas voltaje Hp diametros tuberias etc. saludos

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    11 años 16 horas antes #17848 por Lobo
    Respuesta de Lobo sobre el tema Golpe de ariete
    En tu diseño del acueducto ten mucho cuidado con el golpe de ariete, que se puede dar cuando hay una falla electrica ya que una gran masa de agua se desacelere subitamente te anexo, discucion de problema en hidroelectrica rusa.

    A la descarga de las bombas se diseña una chimenea para que cuando falla la electricidad, el agua que regrese asciende por la chimenea, y no se vaya contra la bomba. Si no sabes ingles busca alguien que te ayude.
    Suerte

    Helpful Member!LSThill (Mechanical)
    11 Sep 09 5:30
    Accident at Russia's Biggest Hydroelectric -Heavy waterhammer in the spiral case and penstock, causing their collapse

     www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/artic...en-workers-dead.html

     www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre57h1qb-us-russia-dam/

     news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8204860.stm

     englishrussia.com/?p=4853

     http:// www.1tv.ru

    Additional detail from Euler Cruz,Consulting Engineer – Turbines,Rafael Cesário,Mechanical Engineer,Brasil – 2009 Aug 24,



    L S THILL

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    Helpful Member!BigInch (Petroleum)
    11 Sep 09 8:19
    There's a few more believers now.

    **********************
    \"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities.\"-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

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    Helpful Member!cvg (Civil/Environme)
    11 Sep 09 11:12
    check out the attached powerpoint

    * files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folde...06-e83f-442b-bb67-c9


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    htlyst (Mechanical)
    11 Sep 09 12:25
    BigInch, What do you mean by your statement?

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    Helpful Member!BigInch (Petroleum)
    13 Sep 09 7:59
    The general lack of attention paid to waterhammer primarily due to the belief that velocities less than around 10 to 15 fps are perfectly safe. Flow velocity is only half the problem. Accelaration or decelleration is the other half. A mass moving at 5 fps decellerated over 30 seconds may not result in much force. A mass moving at 5 fps, decelarated in 1 second can result in relatively quite a lot of force.

    **********************
    \"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities.\"-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

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    jmw (Industrial)
    13 Sep 09 8:41
    Plus, the greater the mass, the greater the problem.
    Take large enough or long enough (or both) pipe and you have the mass equivalent of a car, or a truck moving at speed and you try and stop it in a split second with a fast closing valve.... what you get is a lot of energy to split pipes, destroy valves and pumps .... or worse.

    In this case, how much mass? moving how fast? and trying to stop how quickly?

    What happens when the flow goes from large diameter to smaller diameter? Velocity increases, yes but does it make hammer better or worse (the mass rate of flow remains the same?)

    Water Hammer is not the only way to destroy things catastrophically.

    I recall seeing the pictures of a steam turbine generator plant after a drop (don't ask me how big a drop) of water bulleted into the blades. (These were used by Solartron to show the benefits of Hydratec, a water detection system similar to their boiler drum level system Hydrastep. Impressive.) The turbine, suddenly unbalanced, destroyed itself and its surroundings.

    I guess there is some of that here too, the energy stored in the suddenly unbalanced spinning turbines adding to the destruction.


    JMW
    www.ViscoAnalyser.com


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    sailoday28 (Mechanical)
    13 Sep 09 10:51
    BigInch A mass moving at 5 fps decellerated over 30 seconds may not result in much force??
    Check your water hammer equations. Distance has a significant impact on severity of water hammer.
    Consider 5fps with a downstream valve 1200 ft away, closing
    in less than 0.4 seconds (assuming sound velocity 3000 fps)
    will cause approx 60 psi pressure rise at the valve. For same distance a longer closer time will lessen impact of water hammer.
    Clearly slower closing time will help, but distance must be considered.

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    msquared48 (Structural)
    13 Sep 09 14:31
    That's what surge tanks are for, and that's why I asked the question in the other thread. There ewas never a mention of any surge tanks in the sustem. But with short, but large penstocks, maybe there was no place to put them.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    Helpful Member!LSThill (Mechanical)
    13 Sep 09 15:57
    msquared48 (Structural)

    Dose the Design of Hover Dam have any surge tanks (large penstocks)? or other US HYDRO FACILITIES.

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    msquared48 (Structural)
    13 Sep 09 17:28
    Yes. Diablo Dam on the Skagit River in Washington State, a dam I became very familiar with when I worked for Seattle City Light.

    The other two dams in the system, Ross and Gorge High do hot have surge tanks.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    msquared48 (Structural)
    13 Sep 09 19:52
    I do not know if Hoover dam has any surge tanks, but I have never seen any in the project photos.

    The surge tank at Diable is a concrete cylinder 50 feet in diameter, allowing for a 50 high foot surge from a single 22 foot diameter pennstock. The top is open to the atmosphere. The powerhouse is about 1/2 mile as the crow flies downstream of the intake at the north abutment of the dam, the gravity section. The dam was completed about 1922.

    On second thought, I think that the Gorge High Dam might have a surge tank too, but cannot be sure. This dam was completed in the early 60's, the youngest of the three dams.

    The greater the static head, the longer the pennstock (mass of water), and the greater the velocity (Kinetic energy), the more need there is for a surge tank.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    msquared48 (Structural)
    14 Sep 09 0:07
    A quote from the second article above I believe:

    \"Shoigu said that a sudden surge in water pressure had burst through one of the turbines and caused the flood. \"The main reason for the accident was a hydraulic pressure surge, but the cause of that surge still needs to be investigated,\" he said.\"

    So, the question now is, what caused the water hammer? It could have been a sudden (automatic) shutdown to cause that kind of overpressure, assuming the structure or turbine had not degraded to the point to fail with a lesser amount of water hammer than designed for (big assumption here I know in the Soviet Era - kind of the least bidder syndrome for government contracts here).

    The results will be interesting to say the least. Apparently Russia has infrastructure problems too.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    Helpful Member!BigInch (Petroleum)
    14 Sep 09 2:11
    Thank you Sailoday27 for reminding me about ... friction. Its been such a long time since engineering K11.

    **********************
    \"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities.\"-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

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    itsmoked (Electrical)
    14 Sep 09 17:37
    msquared48; Go check the thread in the Electrical Power forum.

    They put in new turbine gate controls that had issues. It's thought that a gate came off, gutted everything in its path, and broke most/all of the other control gates.

    Keith Cress
    kcress - www.flaminsystems.com

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    msquared48 (Structural)
    14 Sep 09 18:48
    Wouldn't you know it.

    I shouldn't be surprised that the USSR had control issues. Thanks for the info.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    New Postchicopee (Mechanical)
    14 Sep 09 22:27
    Wouldn't grates in the intakes of penstocks stop logs from entering these turbines? I would understand a piece of wood or bare tree branches getting in but not logs.

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    New Postmsquared48 (Structural)
    14 Sep 09 23:22
    I don't think that itsmoked was talking about material getting thru the trashrack at the intake. It sounds to me that there was some other mechanical control surface that broke free further down the line to the turbine(s) and then wreaked havock further downstream. I am not familiar with the nomenclature he uses though of a \"turbine control gate\". I have to assume though that he is not talking about the vanes. Perhaps some kind of butterfly, slice gate, or ball valve.

    Sounds like the failure may have only happended in one turbine system, but affected the other two turbines to either side.

    The photos show one penstock feeding each turbine of the 10 to 12 turbines as I count.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    New Postitsmoked (Electrical)
    15 Sep 09 1:57
    The gates are large vanes that are controlled like venetian blinds. As they are servo controlled to maintain the generator's power input, they are opened and shut slightly.

    It's my understanding and experience that they were typically all controlled by a single huge yoke assembly. However lately they have been migrating to individual servos for each vane, all individually fed by communications lines. I think they'd just gone to this and were initially setting up the new control system.

    As for the other generators they're HUGE units that have extremely large rotors moving at very large tangential speeds only a few millimeters from their stator assemblies. When the water from the failed unit(s) poured into that space hydraulic forces immediately disassembled them.

    Keith Cress
    kcress - www.flaminsystems.com

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    New Postmsquared48 (Structural)
    15 Sep 09 2:45
    So, I guess you were talking about the vanes.

    I thought that these vanes were at the bottom of the turbine assembly, at the end of the main shaft, and at the end of the scroll case, prior to the tailrace shaft. If these are the vanes you describe, the failure of one vane would mushroom, tearing up the other vanes, causing an instantaneous imbalance in the system, instantaneous rotational friction, creating a huge braking force that could literally tear the turbine apart.

    In this scenario is your water hammer.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    New PostHelpful Member!BigInch (Petroleum)
    15 Sep 09 3:44
    Once the control valve failed, it probably made little difference if there were parts of the valve contained in the flow or not.

    **********************
    \"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities.\"-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

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    New Poststanier (Mechanical)
    15 Sep 09 20:32
    msquared48,

    I think BigInch was making the point that engineers needed to be reminded of the need to do a dynamic analysis on a system. Because many do not understand how to do it and are unwilling to pay for a specialist to do the analysis and design they ignore it. Well the perhaps the russians got lazy or skimped on the dynamic analysis. there 90 people who wished they hadnt.

    Check out your design codes. they all say that the design pressure should include for surge. Without a surge analysis how do you know what your design pressure is? you cant guess it.


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    New Postmsquared48 (Structural)
    15 Sep 09 20:51
    Of course surge should be considered. I never said that it shouldn't. But it does not mean that there will be a surge tank in every hydraulic system.

    Mike McCann
    MMC Engineering

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    New Postantonglk (Aerospace)
    16 Sep 09 0:29
    Official version is that accident wasn't caused by water hammer.

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    New Post21121956 (Mechanical)
    16 Sep 09 11:48
    Hello everybody:

    If the machine hall was completely flooded, I can understand the failures on units 7 and 9 while they were running but, at the same time, I wonder what about units 1, 8 and 10? Where they out of service at the moment of the disaster?

    There is no mention of their state after the accident. It seems (as it is shown in the slides) that units 8 and 10 are OK.

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    New PostMortenA (Petroleum)
    19 Oct 09 2:36
    Apperently a Russian guest professor from the tech. uni. of DK claims that he warned the (late) director of the plant 15 years ago (personally he says) that this could happen

    He says the accident was caused bevibrations at a critical frequency link but its in Danish and not a water hammer:

    Link to article (in Danish sorry):

    ing.dk/artikel/103292-dtu-professor-adva...e-paa-vandkraftvaerk

    A brief summary is that he claims the plant was overloaded and that the high velocities cause virabration at a critical frequency. He, furthermore says, that an original 1/10 test mopdel did not included the 200 metres pipe that leads the water from the reservoir to the turbines.

    Its likely that the plant was overloaded since it was going to break the production record of 2006

    Best regards
    Morten

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    New Postkelowna (Structural)
    19 Oct 09 8:45
    Out of my area of expertise, but you might want to look at the NCRPlus article

    www.nce.co.uk/home/energy/catalogue-of-f...ster/5209117.article

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    New PostMortenA (Petroleum)
    19 Oct 09 8:54
    Seems like the same (overall) conclusion - although poor maintenance apperantly amplified the problem until it bacame a disaster.

    Best regards

    Morten

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    11 años 16 horas antes #17850 por Lobo
    Respuesta de Lobo sobre el tema Golpe de ariete
    Cuando digo descarga de la bomba son 100 mts o masconsulta con un ing civil de tu universidad
    Suerte

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    3 años 3 meses antes #25236 por Lobo

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    3 años 3 meses antes #25241 por anniel
    buenas entiendo su problemática, creo que la siguiente pagina le puede ayudar a responder sus dudas, es muy buena.. www.hidroterm.com.ve/PRODUCTOS/proyecto%...as/documentacion.htm

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